How to Friendship

Shasta Nelson is a friendship expert and is here to share how to deepen friendships so we can reach our goals.  She shares the 3 things that need to be present to build friendship and her definition of friendship.  

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In this episode, you'll get the strategies you need to combat loneliness, guidance on where to get started when you want to deepen your friendships, and how you can feel more connected, seen, and loved. And won't THAT help you reach your goals? Arthur shares a bit about his workout routine. You'll also hear about Dia's friendship circle and how they help her reach her goals even though they don't give a sh*t about them.

Visit Shasta Nelson's site at

Take Shasta's Frientimacy Quiz

Get her newest book The Business of Friendship

Learn more about Dia Bondi and what she’s been up to.

Follow The Dia Bondi Show on Instagram


Shasta Nelson 00:01

Mydefinition of friendship is any relationship where both people feel seen in asafe and satisfying way.


Dia Bondi 00:07

And Iwrote down I wrote that down and put it on my sticky note right next to me.Yeah.


Shasta Nelson 00:11

And soit can be broad and I would say like, you know, here we are, Arthur and Dia andmyself are connecting. And in this moment, we would have the looseness level ofthat you know, we're not confiding, we're not going to be recommend pinkypromising ourselves to be friends forever. But in this moment, we each want tobe seen.


Dia Bondi 00:47

Hey,everyone, welcome to the Dr. Bondi show a big podcast for women with goals. Andwhen I'm saying goals, I mean, all the kinds of goals, you got business goals,you got career goals, you got financial goals, you got adventure goals, you gotfamily goals, you



got lifegoals.


Dia Bondi 01:00

If youhave a goal, we're so happy to have you here. And whatever kind of goal youhave, and you're working on is fully legit, gets to be present. And we'rehoping to give you some tools to help you get there as fast as you possiblycan. I'm so glad to be here with you today. And I'm so glad to be here today.With my and our on air producer Arthur Leon Adams the third. Hi, Arthur.


Arthur  01:21

Hey,everybody. I'm happy to be here.


Dia Bondi 01:23

Yeah, Iknow you are. Love it. It's so much what's going on with you today?


Arthur  01:27

Oh, youknow, I'm just pretty busy morning, did a little workout and then just had toput together a proposal and blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.


Dia Bondi 01:36

Yeah.The folks that are listening, maybe do or don't know. But I enjoy a workouthere and there. That's something you know about me, Arthur. And I was sothrilled to see maybe was like a year ago, where you just were like, I'mstarting to jump you picked up a jump rope like jump ropes, your damn jam rightnow,


Arthur  01:53

jumprope is in my jam on and off for many, many years. But I got into the habit ofdoing it every other day. Yeah, about a year ago.


Dia Bondi 02:02

Right?And you're super straightforward. You just like pick up a rope. And you do youlike you just do skips for like you just do skips and numbers of skips. That'sit.


Arthur  02:10

Yeah, Ido. I do hops. And I do running. Running skips. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's funny.When when I told you that first about it, you were like, Oh, yeah. So what doyou like to do? I like to do things like cross my arms, and then I go to theleft and the right. And then I try to do a double jump. Like, no, no, do I justhave a rope and I jumped over it.


Dia Bondi 02:28

I know.Like I actually actively resist the temptation to buy you like a weighted rope,a beaded rope, a lightweight PVC rope. Like it's like I'm I'm actively tryingnot to get all up in your jump rope jam. Just know that. Like, it warms myheart to know that you're jumping over a rope in the courtyard at your house.


Arthur  02:48

And mywhole thing you said, you know, you're talking about how you love working out?I do not. I hate it. But I do it.


Dia Bondi 02:54

Yeah.Well, that's what matters. Yeah, that's what matters. That's what matters. So Ihave something on my mind today.


Arthur  03:02

Oh,yeah. What's on your mind? Yeah.


Dia Bondi 03:03

So youknow, since I've launched this project, all tied to help women helping womenask for more and get it like my main strategy to get this in front of as manywomen as possible has been a b2b strategy. So I bring workshops and keynotes toaudiences for women's associations and organizations. And it's so funny, likewhen I send a proposal out, or I'm working with a content in or an eventsmanager or something, one of the pieces of feedback, but like one of the thingsthat shows up from executive teams, who sort of I don't know that, I don't knowthat they don't get it. But like, they just there's a thing where it's like,oh, if we teach women to ask for more, and get it, are we going to bankrupt ourselves?Like, you're going to come in and teach women how to ask for more and get itand we're just going to end up with like, 300 women asking for a raise, and ournext on our next, you know, review cycle, and I'm like, you guys are missing ita, oh, god forbid a bunch of women asked for what they want, number one, numbertwo, it's so it's like the moment I say ask for more and get it it's reallyeasy for everyone to default to thinking that that means salary negotiationsand promotion. And well it does to some degree. There's so many other thingsthat we can ask for and ask for more of when we go to make that ask thatmatter, not just to us, but to our employers as well. Like when you have womenwho are making asks on behalf of the kind of impact and potential that theyhave for their own dreams for themselves internally and you enable that kindof, you know, ambition and I don't know and strength and authentic pursuit of areal goal. You end up like nurturing rock stars is what you do, like you don't endup bankrupting yourself. So everybody just needs to calm down for a minute andunderstand that this is actually great for retention and engagement and for sofor those of you who are worried that all the women are going to run out andall of a sudden start hammering you for salary increases like in a lot ofcases. When I have follow up coaching struggles with women who are in myworkshops and keynotes, like few of them, maybe one in five, or are having amoney goal not to say that that's good, bad or otherwise, but like, y'all don'thave a reason to be scurred most of them are like, how do I be successful withthis new initiative, I think that I want to lead this new team, which I thinkis going to save the company kajillions of dollars, or I really see thatthere's an opportunity to do this, but nobody else is seeing it, I want topursue that as a you know, as an impact area, or a new role or a new functionor a new way. Like they're doing things that are good for their career, becausethey see an opportunity to be great somewhere, they see a place for theirpotential to grow. So like, just calm down.


Arthur  05:41

That'sreally funny. And it's funny, too. You can just imagine I'm thinking, Oh, sothese women are gonna know that they can ask for more money and that we mightactually have it in our budget to give it to them.


Dia Bondi 05:52

Yeah,and look it you know, what's what's funny, and I think they told the story notlong ago is that the first person who said to me, dia, if you're if you're notconsidering all the other asks that you have to make outside of salary, youknow, comp package stuff and promotion stuff, like you're kind of missing theboat was an engineering leader, like she was an in house propulsionprofessional. And that's all proven to be true, I told a story this morning inone of a, in a exploratory call with a potential client, about, you know, astory of a woman who was this ran worked in sales in her organization for along time, and was looking at, at using asking as a success strategy. What shereally wanted to do was change her career into design into the creative space.And she assumed she had to leave her organization in order to do that, thatthey were gonna, they were going to lose her talent to do that, that the onlyway for her to, to cultivate that new career to make that pivot and cultivatethat new career was going to be out in another company. And what asked for moreand get it meant for her was to go to her manager, manager, let her dreams beknown, and for them to carve a pathway for her to be able to pursue that newgoal in house. And they managed to do that. And what that means is that shefelt emboldened enough to ask for more and get it to take a risk on thatorganization and say, instead of me quitting, and assuming I have to gosomewhere else to fulfill my dreams, what if it happened here, and thatmanager, that organization got to retain her talent. And by the way, when shemoved over to the design team, and into the creative function, she brought allof that institutional knowledge from her sales role from her client facingsales role that she had been doing up until that point. So how is that not goodfor everybody, it's great for everybody. And I just feel like over and overagain, the more we are honest with ourselves and the people around us, withwhat we want, and where we what we see for ourselves, the more actuallyeverybody wins.


Arthur  07:43

Today,we have a little something to share that we got from a workshop participant.And what she said in this email was, I'd like to thank you from the bottom ofmy heart. This week, sessions were truly inspiring. Thanks for your energy,enthusiasm. Please keep touching the lives of many more women.


Dia Bondi 08:00

I lovethis one. And it's just so simple. But I love thank you so much for taking timeand sending this no to our Hello at email at Dia Bondi Communications, this,you know, sometimes I can get in front of a large audience and even a smallaudience and I and well, I get a lot of thumbs up in the chat becauseeverything is virtual right now, you know, to get a note from somebody directlyis like, so lovely. And what I see over and over again, when we do get these isit they are so much more they are so often about how this work is important tothe women that like somebody individual experience with it. But then it's also,like, all these women that are part of this mission, aren't are on boardbecause they they want to have a rising tide floats all boats, I mean that shefinishes here by saying that she wants to keep me She wants me to keep touchingthe lives of many more women like yes. Everybody who's helped me with thisproject, including you, Arthur have been like, yeah, how do we get on board tohelp with the thing you're trying to do? And it's just so common for otherwomen to to say like, I want to help you not because I want to help me, butbecause they want to help get ideas and ideas and strategies, not just from me,but from lots of places in the hands of other women. So we can all be elevated.So yes, thank you. Thank you so much for sending us a note and anybodylistening could send us a note to That's right. This is theonly Episode Five. But if you want to let us know what what you're liking aboutthis podcast, so we can keep doing it or what you'd like to hear more of. We'dlove to hear that because we want to co create with listeners so that we bringyou something that is fun, but also very useful and delightful for you in yourlives. So don't be shy.


Arthur  09:42

Yeah. Andthe other interactive element of the show is that if you have a question aboutsomething about the show or important asked in your life, you can actually giveus a call at 341-333-2997 and ask a question and maybe Dia will talk about iton a future episode. Great. And in general, if you're into the show, you don'tjust have to email us or call us. You can subscribe. You can rate it you canread a review, and help the show reach more people.


Dia Bondi 10:13

So um,let's see, what are we doing today?


Arthur  10:16

Today wehave the first guest ever on the do body Show.



I'm soexcited.


Arthur  10:22

And hername is Shasta. Nelson.


Dia Bondi 10:23

She iswe do have this guest Shasta Nelson. She is a leading expert on friendship, whospeaks across the country. I mean, not right now. But when we are IRL, shespeaks all over the country. And she facilitates events for all aboutconnection. And she's been quoted in magazines and newspapers online in print,including the New York Times Washington Post and Reader's Digest, and has beeninterviewed live on over dozens of TV shows. Check this out, including thetoday show, and the Steve Harvey show, kind of feeling intimidated. But if youhaven't, if you haven't yet seen her popular TEDx talk, you'll want to checkthat out. I watched it actually a couple of weeks ago and she does not pullpunches. Let me just say, enthusiastic and like, you know, right for thejuggler, her previous books, she wrote three books. That's just why I invitedher onto the show. I mean, all her work, is why I invited her but her her threebooks that she has out right now our friendships don't just happen, which is aguide for making new friends as an adult, which seems like such an incredibleasset for intimacy, how to deepen friendships for lifelong health andhappiness, which teaches us how to make our relationships more meaningful whodoesn't want that. And in her newest book, she takes all of her expertise aboutfriendships and puts it and applies it to the workplace. Her latest book iscalled the business of friendship making the most of our relationships where wespend most of our time. So I'm so glad to have Shasta Nelson with us today.Hello, Shasta Nelson.


Shasta Nelson 11:49



Dia Bondi 11:50

I'm soglad to have you on the Deobandi show as our very, very first guest foractually Episode Five.


Shasta Nelson 11:56

I'mhonored. I'm honored. I'm honored.


Dia Bondi 11:58

It's sofunny. So I first met you yes at the clock factory where Arthur and I used tohave a shared an office space together along with a few other creatives andproduction types. We I was hosting Maria Ross's book launch for the empathyedge, which I listened to. I listened to the business of friendship over theweekend, and I heard you cite her book in there. Yay. Yes. Yes. Also, side notefor your book, like holy research. Wow, there was on that. Yeah, we'll talkabout that. But um, but I remember I there was, we didn't get a chance to visitvery much. But I was so compelled by you, for whatever reason you were therewith your husband, I think. And I was like, Ooh, that's a Justin Nelson. I wantto get to know her


Shasta Nelson 12:40

likewise.And I remember we talked about potluck thing. Yes. I think you're right. Ithink you're right. Yeah. And then and then the whole world shut down.


Dia Bondi 12:48

I know.I know. We were like, let's be in a potluck together. Because I never reallyloved potluck, until I became a full on Adult and actually, as a parent, likepotluck thing, to me is the most low stakes. Beautiful, generous way tocultivate friendships might like my favorite thing about a potluck. Well, so soduring that time, when we were non COVID, let me just talk about some weirdfriendship stuff for just a second. Maybe that maybe you'd be like, no, it'snot weird. It's amazing. But I think it's weird. I we had these we would havethese Sunday night, potlucks at my house. We live in a neighborhood that'sfairly dense. And all of us who are, you know, parent friends, as a group ofmaybe five core families hang out together, we have these evenings, we havethis end of the week, potlucks are there. I think I extended an invitation toyou a few times where I'm like, Hey, we're doing a courtyard at six o'clock.And, and like the court Yeah, the core group is like, no problem. I got a saladleftover spinach salad and I got this soup, I'm going to bring whatever welike, do a thing. And then when new families who we were like, oh, let'stotally invite them would get folded in like, you know, mostly friends with themoms in these groups. Like it was always so fun and delightful to have thesemoms show up with their, whatever thing they thought was a paltry offering. Andto feel like it wasn't good enough or they were gonna be teased. Or like it wasyou know, it's like a vulnerable moment to bring and share food and that likewe me and my friend Maya and actually some of the other women we'll talk abouttoday would just be like no like you if you have to bring cheese and crackersgirl we got like, Yes, I feel like it was set to like an initiation for folksto come in and feel like they could bring whatever they had and have it not bea problem. You know,


Shasta Nelson 14:27

I lovethat you just described like the friendship dream that so many people have likea the idea of getting folded into a group that's so amazing or even having thisconsistent community where you know that these people will notice if you'remissing or gone. And then I love the part about the potluck elements. Like forme, friendship is always with food. Like that's just those two things just gotogether so well. But the thing about the potluck I think it's so great is ittakes us out of like to your point takes us out of the entertaining mode andputs us more in the connecting and sharing and breaking bread together mode,but we still come back Without like wanting to impress each other,


Dia Bondi 15:01

yeah, ithas like built in vulnerability, and you gotta bring it, you got to take therisk of bringing something to share. Even if you're bad cook or you were reallytired, you just had to go into your cupboard and bring a box of crackerstotally. And yet,


Shasta Nelson 15:12

that'swhat we all kind of dream of is the friend that can just like come over with amessy house that we don't have to Wow. And we don't have to, like put on thewhole entertaining meal, we can just order pizza. You know, like, That's thedream. And yet, we're kind of scared to like, go straight there. So that's agreat story.


Dia Bondi 15:24

So yeah,we never got to have our potluck shots. If I feel like this is the first onewe're having right now. Awesome. We're bringing our ideas together to thetable.


Shasta Nelson 15:31

There wego. There we go.


Arthur  15:33

Yeah, Ipromise I will come to one of your potlucks one of these days. When you give memore than three hours notice.



I knowit does.


Dia Bondi 15:40

It doeshappen that way a lot. I just like send a text thread. I'm like, What do youhave come up to come up the hill in three hours? Yeah, it's true. So I wantedto bring you on the show because a or friendship expert, which is just in andof itself, completely badass. And then the The other thing was that you know, Ihave in the last two years launched this project. It started with this projectcalled Ask like an auctioneer aimed at helping a million women ask for more andget it using everything I learned from my wild and Goofy midlife impact hobby Itook on of auctioneering for Women led nonprofits and nonprofits that benefit womenand girls. And that slowly sort of morphed into a mission to help put moremoney and decision making power in the hands of women. So we can changeeverything for all of us. And as part of that, you know, we we're launching,this is Episode Five of the Deobandi show a big podcast for women with goals.So something that, you know, has sort of stayed in my heart since I launchedthis, this new sort of mission and project is that I was involved with aWomen's Network a couple of years ago. And we went to it was a digital virtualnetwork that had sometimes sort of city specific face to face meetups. And so Iwent to one in the center in San Francisco one night, and we all I don't knowhow many women there were there, maybe 15, or 20, there was a big huge circleand some flat in San Francisco, and everyone went around, introduce themselvesand said like, why they were there. And for one, I was the oldest woman incircle, number one. Number two, it was remarkable how many women and let me theprofile of this community are like ambitious, super smart, really competent,women who are who are, you know, living it in a lot of ways on their own terms.You know, they've moved from everywhere to pursue their dreams. They're workingat, you know, gene therapy companies and investment companies and, you know,VC, their VC, they're managing their own portfolios. They're like, they thesewomen are like, on it, right?



Mm hmm.


Dia Bondi 17:35

And itwas incredible to me going around the room. So many women in the room said, I'mhere tonight, I do this, I work at this fancy company, I'd have this fancy job.And I'm here because I don't have any friends. Yeah. And my heart just like,Yeah, I was like, it makes me choked up even thinking about it right now I waslike, but you are all the women who are that sort of picture of ambition and,and you know, sort of getting what you want in life. And it was nobody used TheL Word. Nobody use lonely, which I know is a word you use a lot. And that juststuck with me. And I kind of put it in my back pocket. And then when I met you,I was like, I want to have this conversation one day, and this is exactly thetime to do it. And you know, how, where do friendships fit in to our you know,fit into our lives as we pursue our goals? So that's, that's sort of like theseat of the conversation in my head. I want to have today.


Shasta Nelson 18:34

Yeah, Ilove that story. It just puts a face and a feeling to exactly what is so so socommon. And it reminds me it's I used to be a life coach back in the day. Andit was life coaching, those people you just described, where they were hiringme for all kinds of other big, amazing goals. And to each person, I would ask,what are your friends saying? How are your friends supporting you? Because I knewI wasn't a friendship expert back then that wasn't my thing. But I knew fromthe research that if they you know if they want to go start a company, but alltheir friends think that's irresponsible, there's going to be some kind ofdisconnect, but if all their friends start their own companies, that's a wholedifferent thing. And so I was always asking, like, what are your friends sayingabout this? Or, you know, and to a person? They were just like, Oh, yeah, well,I mean, yeah, I just went through a divorce. And all my friendships are kind ofup in the air, or like, well, I just moved here a couple years ago, and I'velost touch with those friends. But I haven't made new friends or I don't reallytalk about this kind of thing with my friends. And I mean, it was almost to awoman and I've walked away with a similar feeling like, wow, like, just wow,that we are some of the most successful brilliant, amazing go getters arefeeling that loneliness. And that was really my deep dive into like, how can Ihelp these women and starting looking for resources? That really is what kindof put me down this road of like, Where are the resources? And like, wow, thisis really dismal and there's so much compelling research and yet nobody'stranslating that and everybody's obsessed with romantic relationships andfamily. And child relationships when the vast majority of the relationships inour lives are not those few it's like all the other ones that really forespecially for women, but men to correlate so much to our health and happinessand so really that was the deep dive for me that kind of the impetus. So yeah,similar story where you look around and, and I'm often on stage now speakingto, you know, we often use the word lonely to think of this recluse that's hermit,this person with no social skills, we haven't seen them in a couple years,their shutters are closed. And I'm like, the truth of the matter is theloneliest people today are the successful, they're the ones who are so busywith so many relationships, there could be very popular, very scheduled,they're taking care of kids and family, and they're, and they're good daughtersand mothers and fathers and, and they're often in careers where they're takingcare of people and are charming and amazing, have great people skills and areliked. And yet at the end of the day, they feel like does anybody really knowme? You know, am I really confiding in anyone does? Am I seen for who I am andmy love for who I am? And that that feeling like there? Is that hunger for beingreally close to people?


Dia Bondi 21:04

Yeah,there. So in that, I feel like there's a there is a See, when we look at ourlives, there's like if our if our lives are a big dining table, you know, youlook at like, okay, there's my romantic partner, you know, he or she, they sitin that chair, there's the people that I care for, you know, kiddos, maybe theysit in that chair, my bosses and the people that I report to people that arethe power holders in my life, they sit in that chair, and then my network,quote, unquote, my network, you know, sits in that chair, and then like,there's all these chairs that belong to different things like, what, what arefriendships for?


Shasta Nelson 21:38

Yeah,well, and our friends, our friends can be in some of those categories. And insome of those chairs, for sure. And so, you know, like, right now that I mean,as you were saying, the book I just wrote the business of friendship, as adultswork is the number one place where we're making our friends. And so thatnetwork could mean it could hold some of our best friends, certainly our bossand our colleagues. And so our friends can be there, I use the word friendbroadly, in those kinds of ways to recognize that any relationship, mydefinition of friendship is any relationship where both people feel seen in asafe and satisfying way.


Dia Bondi 22:13

I wrotedown, I wrote that down and put it on a sticky note right next to me.


Shasta Nelson 22:18

And soit can be broad. And I would say like, you know, here we are, Arthur and Diaand myself are connecting. And in this moment, we would have the loosest levelof that, you know, we're not confiding, we're not going to be promisingourselves to be friends forever. But in this moment, we each want to be seen ina way that feel safe, and then we get off and feel satisfied. And that would bethe hope I have for any meeting for any connection. But obviously, that wouldincrease in intimacy or in depth or in deepness, the, the more we practicethose things. And so I use the word for intimacy, to kind of be the coined wordfor like the deepest level of intimacy. And I think that's when I'm doing myresearch. That's what most of us are missing. Most of us actually know enoughpeople. Most of us know how to be kind to people and be friendly with people.Most of us when we're lonely, it's because we're missing the for intimacy, thehighest levels of that where I truly feel seen in so many areas of my life,where it's not, I'm not just a mom in this group and, and a kick ass woman inthis group and a father in this group and somebody in this church, but it'slike some of those relationships where I'm known I'm seeing it feels good.They're there for me. And I can trust those those bonds. And so I think for allof us, though, it's it's having a mix, we, one of the biggest studies thatjumped out at me when I was researching this book was the Dr. Niven from OhioState University, I believe he said, People often think of happiness as thisreally ambiguous thing like just jello, it's hard to nail against the wall. Andhe said, it's not ambiguous at all we have, he took all the research studiesaround the world, longitudinal studies of all these different friendships. Andhe said, 70% of our happiness comes down to our relationships. And when youlook at all the things that make us happy, and that made up but he put it intofour categories of the quantity of our relationships, the quality of ourrelationships, our family relationships, and then our colleagues and neighborsand kind of that group. And so some of us do really well in one or two ofthose, but we the happiest people, the ones who feel most connected, have thatkind of breadth of a network and depth and with a few people and they all andthey all matter to our happiness.


Dia Bondi 24:19

Isuspect that that women those women in that circle that I mentioned in myearlier story, or have have a have a really wide net, maybe the you know thebreadth is there, but maybe the depth is not and there's two things that arecoming up for me as I think about this one is like I have had moments in mylife. So well three things actually. One is that I didn't really have I don'thave the only friend that I somebody who I could have that seen in a safe andsatisfying way. You know, that is continued from my earlier life is my husband.I don't have any friends leftover from high school college because I think youknow you speak about how frequency or You don't use the word frequency. But theconsistency frequencies want to get done with college, the consistency of beinginstead to group together is gone or, you know, being housemates is gone. Andso as soon as that consistency is gone, there's no other forcing function tokeep that consistency going, or for whatever reason. And I moved to the BayArea after I had kiddos and I remember my mother in law saying to me, I waslike, oh, Where should I put the kids in preschool? What do we need to look forin preschool? What does that mean to the academics matter? Like, does proximitymatter? Like what's you know, what's the thing that matters? And she was like,go, your kids don't care. Your kids do not care where they go to preschool. Shewas like, why you need to go to preschool is that you need friends. And shesaid, that's why you have to go to a co op. And we went to a we we registeredfor a co op, and I have friends now that are 1012 years old, that are heart.Yeah, that are totally in my heart that so so you know, I made friends, not mybrother has friends left over from his kid hood that are rich and deep. Andthey are deeply connected. I didn't have that I had to make them in sort of inin my late 30s. Mm hmm.


Shasta Nelson 26:05



Dia Bondi 26:06

Makes methink that I have had moments in my 30s as well, were other women. I mean, I'min my 40s. Now, other women have sat with me and have said, like, I can seethem sweating and awkwardly saying they want to be friends with me. And to notknow how to get started. Yeah. So I wonder like for women who know they needand want more depth? You know, what's the first step they take?


Shasta Nelson 26:33

Yeah,and I'd let me just normalize what you just named. I mean, it's reallyincredibly common. And we have a lot of shame in our culture around like, if wehave if we have to admit, we need friends that there's something wrong with us.And it's so heartbreaking. The research actually shows that we replace our halfof our close friends every seven years. So you think about who you're close tonow, and chances are high that those a few of those names are not people, youwere confiding in seven years ago, you may not have even known them seven yearsago. And so certainly there are the stories, hopefully half of our network, ourclose friends, like you said, You maintained you kind of made it past thatseven year and they can become more going through different life stage friendswith you. But for many of us, there is a revolving door there. And that goesall the way through I do a lot of I do a lot of interviews, like with ARP and withretirees, I mean, there's a whole nother level of drop friends dropping offwhen we quit our careers. And so it's it's normal, I guess, is what I just wantto say that all through our life, we have to become adept at making newfriends. It's not something to be ashamed of at all. It's that those of us whoquickly identify that and really the first thing that I'm always kind of big onis, is kind of just prioritizing a little bit. I mean, it depends. I think myfirst book was friendships don't just happen. And one of the things I loveabout that book is I have an assessment in there. And I teach the fivedifferent types of friends. And what I love about that is that for some people,they're surprised that they're lonely, because they're like, I have a lot offriends, like, why am I feeling this. And so it's helpful to identify, well, Ihave these three or four different types of friends, but I'm missing this typeof friend. And so for some, for some of us, it's lonely for a certainexperience a certain type of friend, which can be really helpful to identify.And some of us are lonely because we just moved to a new area, and we trulydon't know people and we don't feel like we belong, or we started a new ourkids started a new school or we started attending a new religious or anywherewe're going to be regular is going to feel lonely until we feel like we havesome relationships there. So for some of us, it's like I don't feel rooted inthis place this context this job yet. And so that's our loneliness, it doesn'tmean we don't have best friends, it might mean we need to make relationships inthis space. And for some of us, it's truly what I was speaking to earlier thatI really believe that the majority of us and the research is backing this upthat it's not for lack of interaction, but it's for lack of intimacy. And sofor most of us, I would venture to guess the best place to start is naming ofthe people you do know you already just assume you know enough people, I thinkmany of us jumped to the conclusion that if I'm lonely, I need to go meet morepeople. And that might be true for a few of us in those first examples I gave,but for the vast majority of us we know enough people that we don't know how toactually turn the people we've met into friends. And so for Yeah, exactly thatthat's exactly like literally


Dia Bondi 29:05

onenight after a mixer after a gathering that I hosted. One woman stayed justawkwardly procrastinating for a really long time until I was like girl and turnit off the lights. And her husband called and she goes Hey, babe, she's like,in the phone. She's like, Hey, babe. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm having theconversation right now. Okay, see you in an hour. In that moment. She like shebasically friend proposed to me or friend like, will you go out on a first datewith me? And there was incredible vulnerability in that. What I'm hearing yousay is like we can actually take inventory of the friends that come from lotsof different places in our lives and and make a decision about who we want todeep who we want to deepen with. Is that what I'm hearing you say?


Shasta Nelson 29:50

I thinkthat's the first place to start is kind of prioritizing the like pulling a postit note, don't make this overly complicated and just like write down the namesof a few people that you wish We're closer to that you will lean in whenthey're around what you enjoy being with, like, Don't overcomplicate it, butjust kind of start writing down five, six names. And then just the goal is tostart kind of prioritizing, and we can get into, like, what are the threerequirements of every relationship, I typically wouldn't be encouraging thefriend proposal concept. I love her bravery. And I think most of us err on theother side and could like, you know, practice doing a little more brave stuff.But it doesn't have to be trying to jump up some basil. Yeah, just do some,some dump somebody from what you know, from one to five right away. It's like,like, let's just like figure out how to just slowly keep adding in the ingredientsthat we know bond people, and trust that as we do that, with a hand a handfulof people, we will find a few people that are responsive, and that we candeepen that with.


Dia Bondi 30:45

Yeah,and to be fair, by the way, she and I are still really good friends, I give herall my leftover baby closed our baby, like with lots and lots has happenedsince then. And really her friendship proposal for me wasn't like, Can I call?Can we be friends? It was more like, I want to get to know you to get better.Like, can we find time in the next month to like have lunch? Or, you know, shewas basically like, I've identified you as somebody that I'm really interestedin learning more about? Can we find a way to do Can I Can you can you fit meinto your life a little bit so we can get to know one another. It definitelywasn't, wasn't a deep end moment. But I did recognize that there was a littlebit of like, making the offer to take me to lunch was in and of itself a risk,you know, because she was opening herself to me just a little bit.


Shasta Nelson 31:29

We havea whole culture around dating, where are they? There's protocol. And the rulesare changing all the time, so to speak. But we understand that to get to knoweach other one of us has to invite the other person to go do something we haveto hang out. And we know that if it went well, we need to do it again.Sometime. It's like we have this like these terms will eventually have aconversation that says like, are we exclusive? Or are you still dating? Andlike, we're like, Who are we as a relationship? What are we like we have theselike steps. But with friendship, it's one of the most complicated factors isthat we don't know who should be inviting who and is it? Like, is it awkward toinvite and I can't just walk up and say You look great. Look, I have your phonenumber and call you and you look fine. And like yeah, there is a lot lessacceptance and cultural familiarity around that. So it's going to feel moreawkward.


Dia Bondi 32:11

So in inyour book business of friendship, making the most of our relationships, wherewe spend most of our time, you know, the I have been in and around, you know, Ihave only had a job for three years of my entire adult life. I've been anindependent professional, like my whole life. And, but but I am in and aroundthe world of like managing people and feedback and you know, goal setting,performance reviews, and all that stuff. And we talk a lot about ourperformance. We do a lot of this feedback stuff. But I never hear folks talkingabout managers or co workers talking about their relationships explicitly, notlike not necessarily tied to like performance feedback, but just like howstrong is our relationship? How are we doing on this relationship? Like it likeexplicitly talking about that what you talked about the third entity, you know,in your book, you referenced the third entity they're like, How much more? Canwe talk about our relationships with one another?


Shasta Nelson 33:05

so muchmore. One of the assessments I go into companies and do is I have a healthyteam relationship assessment, and each person on the team has to answer,basically 10 questions and each of the three requirements of relationship andthey end up getting a score. So that's their experience of their relationshipwith their belonging on the team. And then we take all those individual scoresand compile them to come up with Team averages. And it's one of the most funconversations to start really talking about is saying positivity, that's yourlowest score as a team. So how are we expecting to bond? Like, why would peoplewant to keep showing up more often, if they feel worse when they hang out withyou? Or like why this is why they're not looking forward to those virtualmeetings every single day, like they get off more tired, more drained, youknow, and so we can start looking at and kind of assessing it gives us thistangible language to actually kind of name and say, we know now what Bond'speople together. And so we can actually look at and evaluate and do a betterjob of saying this isn't a personal attack. This isn't like something that anyone person, I think that's one of the most powerful things about it actually,is that it's, it's often not because they're they're bad, or they're toxic, orall this kind of stuff. It's simply that most of us have never been taught howto build meaningful relationships when you look at the big job studies. Now,social skills are the number one requirement like we so often think we're inthis technical age. But the truth of the matter is most of our jobs like oncewe learn the technology of that job, it's the same thing every single day, likeare, we're not having to do that much more computer innovation stuff every day,it's kind of becomes routine. Whereas this is interpersonal relationships thatcan just continue to be to be such a rub. And so we aren't we have not most ofus have not been trained in our social skills. We don't actually know what todo we avoid conflict. We're afraid of rejection. I mean, so this is an areathat gets really messy and I think one of the most powerful things we can do Ilove not that it needs to be a performance review, but having language fortalking about this as a team or even just as a friendship to just being able toit's okay to come in Say I have needs or when you do this I feel this way orlike, how could we make this better? Like what, what what makes you feel mostloved, you know, and be able to actually talk about our relationship is sopowerful. So I do this weekly thing with a small group of women we call, wecall it the bitch and whine. And it's an hour right now, because


Dia Bondi 35:18

we're inCOVID. It's a zoom call. Otherwise, it's sitting on somebody's back deck, youknow, and we just we bitch and whine. And what we don't is try to what we don'tdo is try to solve each other's problems. We just let each other bitch andwhine. And sometimes sometimes w h i n e, and sometimes it's wi n e orwhatever, whenever we could call it bitch and tea if people are bringing teathat day, but


Shasta Nelson 35:37

underHave you been invited to this one, this one sounds very fun.


Arthur  35:41

No, I'mstill waiting for my invite on that one.


Dia Bondi 35:44

Well, Ican't promise it, it's gonna happen within three hours, you know, any furtherout



thanthree hours went?


Dia Bondi 35:48

Now justkidding. It's an ongoing date.


Arthur  35:50

If allthey have to do is bring my complaints, then that's much easier than having toprepare food.



It's prettyeasy potluck.


Dia Bondi 35:56

It is apotluck of complaints. That's exactly what it is. Oh, my God, I


Arthur  36:01

canpitch about stuff right now, if you want


Dia Bondi 36:05

mearound, I was thinking about you know, so the question inside of this is like,what different how to friendships help us reach our goals, even when ourfriends don't give a shit about our goals. So like this group of women that Iand I told them, I was gonna sort of gently throw them under the bus this way,but it's not really throwing it throwing them under the bus that like thesegirls, they love me. They tell me they love me. But literally, I like I don'tthink any one of us could save very accurately what each other doprofessionally. You know, one's a lawyer, one's an eye doctor. One is a is apet. She does stuff with pet with animals. You know, I do what I do whateverthe hell this is, you know, one of them's a public health and like it likethat, but we couldn't get so so what I mean is, you know, sometimes I'll sayguys I'm doing this is golden. You know, they know last year, you know, maybethey didn't know, but I can say I have this goal. And they're like, Yay foryou. Or if I like make a big achievement toward it. They're like, Uh huh. Butwhen are we going camping next? You know, there's like, so so but for somereason, it doesn't hurt my heart. It doesn't make me feel ignored. It makes mefeel like whether I'm reaching my goals or not. And I actually brought this upwith him last night. I was like, What is it about our friendships that arefriendship? That is okay, when I'm trying to do stuff, and you girls are hardlyeven watching. And I think and my friend Maya said his beat she said is becausewe're here for who you are and what, not what you do. So in the business offriendships, in the front end of the book, you talked a lot about how you knowfriendships can lower our stress levels, which maybe helps us perform better, Idon't know. So what are your thoughts about how we're headed, our friendshipshelp us reach our goals, even when they don't give a shit about our goals.


Shasta Nelson 37:54

I lovehow you articulate that. And it's one of the things when I kind of circlingback to that first book, The friendship, the friendship zone does happen. I teachfive different types of friends. And you're describing kind of the fifth, thefifth deepest level where it's like, we have consistency, we havevulnerability, we leave feeling good. Those are the three requirements ofrelationship positivity, consistency and vulnerability. And so you have thatwith them. And so often we can sometimes whether it's whether it's your storywith its career, it's often happens to where women will say, All my friends aremarried. And I'm the only single one or one of the one of the stories I sharein that book is one of my friends was the first one to have a baby in thatgroup. And, and she was just like, you guys don't know this side of me, right.And so we could empathize. And we can kind of love her and like what your friendsdo with you like, Yay. But we don't know what it's like to have a baby and beup all night long. And so I said, Go make a group, make some friends with moms.I joined a moms group. And she was I felt like she was kind of betraying us todo that. And I was like, No, that's a part of you that needs to be expressedand seen and supported. And then it was so interesting, because down the road,you know, a few months later, I was like, how's that moms group going? And shewas like, they don't even know me outside of being, you know, Lily's mom. Andso they don't know what I do. And like, and I was like, that's okay, that'swhat we're here for, you know. And so it was an interesting thing for us torealize, like, that second group of friends is the common friends, like, theseare people that I'm here because we're committed to losing weight, becausewe're surviving cancer together. Because we're entrepreneurs, because we'reauthors because we're, we're in the law firm, you know, and so we, we have thiscommonality, and it's so powerful, because we do want to be seen in that area,we do need to surround ourselves with people who can support that give ideas tothat, who actually know what's going on in that zone. That's what makeswordfriends so powerful, is they get my friends who are authors, they know whatit means that I've published a book, whereas my other friends are like, yeah,you probably should book but they have no clue. You know, what goes on and whatthat really means. And just like I don't know what it's like to wake up allnight long with a crying baby. We can empathize, we can cheer, and I thinkthere's something so beautiful about having those friends who kind of know thatexperience. But commonality while can while giving you a lot in a certain contextis not what actually Bond's us and so we can have a whole bunch of commonalityand you would be missing what you have with those friends that your your bitchand wine group. What you have with those friends is Friendship, where you'vegot the positivity, the consistency and the vulnerability. commonalities areonly important in a relationship if they help us do those three things. And soyou could line me up with like my twin and it doesn't mean we're better, we'regonna have any be any better friends, unless we practice those three things.And so I'm kind of one of those people who says it's not either or it's like,make sure you have those friends who know your heart, who you can be real withwhat you have there. And if there's a side of you that like is wanting to be apainter right now, or wanting to go write a book, or wanting to run a marathon,like rather than be mad at our friends, for not having the same goal or thesame career or the same life stage, go find people who can support that side ofyou. And then don't be mad at those friends for not knowing your heart to likethey serve different purposes. And it's okay, they both they both aremeaningful in different ways. And on both sides help you live your goals, likeit's powerful that your friend was able to say, we love you for who you are, wedon't care if you fail all your goals, whereas in a group of people who arejust like you, you might feel a lot more judgment there, you may not feel safebeing vulnerable if you're not making those goals, you know, and so there'sdifferent dynamics. And I think it's I think those of us who live with the mostsense of connection, and love and acceptance in our lives, are those who knowthat different friends, meet, meet different needs and see us in different waysthat feel safe and satisfying. And they'll see different sides of us. And Ithink that's important. I think it's good. And I think it leaves you feelingmore supported in more areas of your life.


Dia Bondi 41:22

Youwrote in and and released the business of friendships last year in 2020. Whydoes that? Why does this book matter now?


Shasta Nelson 41:32

Yeah,it's, it's interesting. There's nothing worse than like realizing you'reeveryone's working remote. When you're actually telling, telling the world it'sreally important that these friendships matter at work. It's interesting towatch. And I will say though, our work relationships still matter whetherthey're virtual or in person. And that is because we are spending the bulk ofour day making whatever contribution it is, we're each making. This is the bulkof our day, this is the bulk of our hours and what we're spending our livesdoing. And it is if we feel lonely, and that if we don't feel witnessed, if wedon't feel seen, if we don't feel supported in that it is virtually impossibleto make up our social needs. Outside of that. We cannot we know that we don'thave this like bucket of personal life, that we can spend enough time buildingfriendships. And so that used to be what I was spending so much time doing myfirst few books where, you know, here's how to make friends and was almostalways in your personal life because we've often treated you know, friendshipin that section. And I was like, I could talk to you in a one more phone call aweek I could talk to you know, one more girls weekend, a year, and it's notgoing to turn this ship around. Like if you're lonely, the bulk of your day,then that we can't make this up. And so it's really important that we that weit's kind of like sending your kids to school and hoping that they don't buildany friendships at school, and then thinking that you can make it up in theafternoon play program or something. I mean, we just need all the whole time.So it's really important now for us to be having these conversations, do we howdo we do this? If we save remote? How do we do this safely? If we're in person,we know that people who feel like they have a best friend at work are seventimes more engaged. So if I'm an HR person, if I'm a manager, this is a reallybig deal to me, if I care about mental health, if I care about resiliency, if Icare about your engagement and retention, then I should be asking how am I notjust how many meetings are we having? And are we getting our meeting ourproduct numbers, it should be coming down to what am I doing to help make suremy team feels connected to each other likes each other feels like they'resupported by each other. And that really becomes if we can take care of thatpiece. And it actually so much of the other things that we stress about willactually play out better we have better customer service, we have morecreativity, they feel safer brainstorming. I mean, the list goes on and on andon. If we can focus on making people feel like they belong at work, it's soimportant. And where can folks find you and do more with you Shasta well thebusiness of friendship comm has where you can get the book and then a wholebunch of free stuff that you can do that. And then Shasta Nelson comm if youare looking for me to come in and work with a team or corporation or speakhappy to do that, and sign up for my list there, you never know what I'm goingto do. I don't even know what I'm going to do year to year. Like I dointernational trips and retreats and you know, it just changes all the time. Soif you want to like be a part of any of that you'll have to sign up for mylisting. When I know what I'm doing, you'll know what I'm doing.


Dia Bondi 44:17

And youyou have something called a friend Missy quiz that folks can take as well. Isthat true?


Shasta Nelson 44:21

Yes,yes. If you go to Shasta right along the top is that is that quiz.And that's a great quiz for helping you kind of assess yourself as a friend inpositivity, consistency and vulnerability. We can measure the health of anyrelationship by those three things. I can guarantee anybody listening that youhave never built a meaningful relationship without those three things. Andconversely, any relationship that's not feeling meaningful right now, it'sbecause at least one of those three things is lacking. So that quiz will helpyou kind of take an assessment of if you were to focus on one of those threethings that would make the biggest difference to you feeling more connected toyour friendships, which one would it be? Well, fantastic.


Dia Bondi 44:56

I lovedhaving you. Shasta. You're amazing and This is gonna be the not this is not thelast potluck of ideas. We're going to have.


Shasta Nelson 45:05

Arthurand I want to be invited to one of those lines at some point. Yeah.



Allright. Great. I love it.


Arthur  45:11

Allright. Thanks, Shasta.


Dia Bondi 45:19

She'sclass act. Yeah. You know, I, she and I were giving it up a little bit in thebefore we started, and I was like, you know, is a little nervous for me beingof this first formal interview for the podcast. And I was like, I hope I don'tknow. Hope. I don't totally ruin it. And how could you possibly ruin it withsomebody? Like somebody like that?


Arthur  45:41

Oh, yeah.Yeah. So good.


Dia Bondi 45:43

says,Oh, God. So what were the big ones for you that big ideas today?


Arthur  45:46

Well,you know, that the the thing that really, that stood out to me, and it'ssomething I've actually thought about before, and my wife and I have talkedabout, but it's, you know, the acquiring of new friends, when you're older. Andthe idea that you don't necessarily have to go out and try to meet new people,there are probably lots of people that you like, and might want to be friendswith, that you already know, acquaintances, or work friends, or whatever. And,you know, my wife and I have talked about it many times, like, Hey, we shouldbecome real friends with so and so or this couple or this person. Like, they'rereally cool. Like we should. You know, of course, this last year, the pandemichas made it a lot harder to actually, you know, hang out with people, and I'mjust so sick of like, zoom Hangouts and stuff. So yeah. But yeah, it's it'ssomething that, that stood out to me. And the idea of actually like, writingdown on, like, a list of people that these are cool people. Let's becomefriends with them. Yeah. And not and not doing it in the formal way. Like youwere saying, Yeah, what are your friends? Did you But yeah, but just, you know,reaching out to them trying to hang out, you know, blah, blah, blah.


Dia Bondi 46:54

Yeah, Ithink that's, that stood out for me, too. Is there anything else before I justgo off on? Like, what stood out? For me?


Arthur  47:00

That wasmy main, that was my main thing that like, felt really personally relevant tome.


Dia Bondi 47:04

Yeah. Imean, I feel like, you know, I mean, I've been married for 21 years. And, youknow, the sort of three aspects of friendship, you know, that she talks aboutare ones that like, I think we've been pretty active, about, about doing in ourmarriage. And that's what's helped and I think, helped us stay, you know, notjust married, but like actually connected. And I think it's really well, twothings. One is that I think we can intentionally just activate these tools inthe friendships that we do want to deepen or maintain in a real way. The otherthing that I thought was really interesting was when she said that, you know,that we research shows that every seven years, we may cycle through somefriendships, which implies that either deep friendships become shallower, ormaybe they end for when we know, you know, for one reason or another, eitherabruptly or otherwise. And, you know, there is potential for loss in all ofthese. And it's just part of the cycle of connections, part of the cycle of ourlives. I mean, for in her book, business of friendship, you know, leaving a jobwhere you've cultivated friendships that you depend on, has got to have realloss in it. And so I think, you know, there's a vulnerability as well,investing in a friendship, knowing that, you know, if it ends and when it ends,or changes that we have to just experience that loss, and have that be part ofthe experience of our friendships.


Arthur  48:31

Oh,yeah. And a lot of things can affect that, like, you know, I grew up inVermont, first 20 something years, 21 years, and then I moved out here, and allmy close friends from back there with a handful of people who actually movedout here as well. They're still I consider my friends and I see them when I'mhome, but I don't keep in touch with them. I don't talk to them regularly.There's like one guy from high school that I still keep in touch with regularlyand we text and we talk on the phone every once in a while. But that's kind ofit and I you know, I remember having to accept that when I was still in my 20sthat Oh, these people I moved to California and I'm not gonna be close withmost of these people anymore.


Dia Bondi 49:14

Right?Because consistency which is one of the three aspects you know, of a friendshipis is nearly impossible when you're 3000 miles away from one another. Yeah, sothat's that's really that's really yeah, that's really that's real. And youknow, when I think about when I think about friendships and how they reach ourI love that she said, like you can you can, you can have a whole portfolio offriends your current when she called common friends, where they're they'relooking to, you know, achieve similar goals in a cemetery similar territory andthey can serve that need and then you have friends like my bitchin wearing crewwho you know, are a place to relax and a place to feel seen and a more sort ofquiet way, maybe not tied to outcomes, which actually does help me with mygoals because I have respite, you know from being in sort of that that I don'tknow achievement mode or in that striving mode and that's a really beautifuland cherished thing for me So which one crew they got to you all right i thinkthat was a great episode today or I'm so I'm so happy to have done this withyou and with Shasta and I'm gonna see all around the bend.


Arthur  50:20

Yeah.All right. Goodbye, everybody.


Dia Bondi 50:27

ThisPodcast is a production of Dia Bondi Communications and is produced and musicified by Arthur Leon Adams the third aka baby a. You can like share rate andsubscribe at Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get yourfavorite podcasts. Find or follow us on Instagram at theDeobandi show. Want to shoot us a question for the show. Call us at341-333-2997

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